Self Convo: Masturb…

Ecclesiastes 9:10…look it up.

Wow. Never noticed that verse in this context. Funny.

outside of marriage i have no set idea…but within marriage, since i am married, i have an opinion. it does in fact hurt a relationship. if a man M’s then this communicates to his wife that she is not sufficient nor does she fulfill his sexual needs. sex or anything like it, should be shared between the man and the woman who are bound by holy marriage. but then are you allowed to have your way with yourself when you’re single but then stop when you’re married? i say if you have mastered (haha) the ability to do it without lusting then good luck, enjoy the healthy release. otherwise, steer clear. and if you are married…it is simply NOT ok, that the job (haha) of your spouse to help you in that area…..sex is suppose to be a SHARED experience, in fact a fantastic one, when done in the right context. God knew what he was doing…

I think this post is great. I’m glad you’re taking the time to explore controversial topics!

I’m somewhat disappointed to see that this is the only post on your site tagged as “boobs!”

Good exploration, and I would love to read further debate in the comments.

My biggest argument FOR (especially for single guys) is that it’s much better than the alternative (sleeping with hordes of women, like most non-Christians do.) I think keeping your virginity is a better alternative than not. And so for that reason, I think it’s OK.

I also think in your sexual peak, it would be dangerous to suppress what nature is telling you to do. So again, find the healthiest way to do it with the least consequences.

I wish I could remember WHO said it, but someone wiser than I commented on the slurry of Catholic priests with recent pitfalls, saying, “I think a lot of Catholic priests should be having sex,” meaning that suppressing sexuality completely causes them to fall into much more dangerous snares. I tend to agree with that thought.

“On the other hand” (haha) I think the central sin behind the M-word is lust. So, keeping the lust-factor to a minimum is key here.

“Does he have arms?”
Classic.
Grerat point that we feel guilty because we’re taught that something is wrong.

what if you’re always super horny (seriously), but your wife is too:
tired
pregnant
sick
not in the mood
out of town
fed up with your constant hornyness
etc
etc

what if we were incredibly honest?
Husband: i’m ready baby, let’s do it
Wife: no, too tired, maybe tomorrow
H: no, now
W: no, i’m going to bed now
H: well i’m just gonna go lay on the couch and take care of myself
W: well, ok, just think about me while you’re doing it
H: ok

result positive – wife gets good sleep, husband gets good you know what, they wake up in each other’s arms both being happy and satisfied (is that possible?)
result negative – wife can’t sleep for obvious reasons, husband thinks about ‘I Dream of Genie” lady and lusts till you know what happens, they wake up the next morning and get divorced (is that possible?)

maybe we should just host a huge Christian Castration party and end it all…

Driscoll has some thought provoking stuff: http://relit.org/porn_again_christian/ch5.php

My thoughts:
Single: go for it but BE CAREFUL. I agree it is better than actually having sex but figuring out how to do it without developing an addiction to pornography could be SERIOUSLY difficult! Also, be honest about it. If it becomes a secret thing you do and you end up getting married and you keep it from your spouse…welcome to the danger zone.

Married: if you BOTH agree it’s cool…it’s cool. BUT again, you need to put up some safeguards so that lust or porn doesn’t creep in. Example, you and your wife agree to do a photo shoot. That way you can fantasize about your wife and not some other woman.

its hurt my marriage relationship…

its also really difficult to use scripture to argue that a little bit of sin is better than a lot of sin. in fact, when i try to embrace ideas like that (like i’ll just do it once a week) i find that they are only ever born out of my own lack of discipline and not a sincere desire to live in harmony with scripture.

God also gave us the gift of the nocturnal emission. sweet, sweet release. and its like a surprise party in your bed. everyone wins. so the “repressing nature” argument doesn’t really hold water either.

Nate-Beat me to the punch on the Driscoll link. I think the way that Driscoll laid out the issue is one of the more realistic views on the topic that I have read. It’s lengthy, but definitely worth the time to read for anyone who’s serious about the issue.

I agree that lust is at the center of the issue, and find it difficult to honestly say that, as a guy, you could M without lusting, married or single.

It’s a constant fight, and just wanted to encourage everyone out there that is having that mental conversation as I know I have on numerous occasions. Thanks for the insightful and encouraging post

To decide if it’s right or wrong, you have to accept one of two basic premises.

If you feel that it’s okay, then you have decided that you have a right to experience an orgasm. In a worldly setting this might mean that you also accept pornography and lust. With a religious viewpoint, it has to be seen as no more than a physical release with extreme pleasure.

My thoughts are, that to decide it is wrong, you must view an orgasm as being a shared experience between a husband and a wife. God designed sex for marriage and wants it to be a moment of immense intimacy. It is a moment of worship. This is what I believe. I also know that God does also make a way for us to overcome our natural urges. When I didn’t want to in the past, I didn’t take advantage of it. Now, I know that I can lean on him when I need to do so.

The book Sex God by Rob Bell described the holiness of the act of sex far better than I can.

I have not in the past lived out what I now believe. I thank God that he has given me another chance.

Good thoughts. I believe what you think about this issue comes from two different teams of belief- -worldy or Godly (1John 2:15-17) and both will have defenses of why you should or shouldn’t do it.

And, as for “Team-G”, purity is the goal and the win. ANd, in order to move towards it, the strategy is to win with the eyes first (cause the m comes as a result).

It is the eyes that are the window of our soul. It is the eyes that causes men to stumble (Mt 18:9). It is the eyes that Solomon says in Proverbs 6:5 not to let a woman catch you with. It is the eyes that if a man looks at a woman to lust after her that causes adultery. It is the eyes that Job made a covenant with (Job 31:1) to not lust after a woman.

And, it is with the eyes that the pure in heart are promised to SEE God (Matthew 5:8)

..that is a good thing and in my mind a great team to be on and win with : )

get a vibrator. you don’t need to think about anything. i heard it can work for guys, too.

Great post, man!

But how can one really comment on this? So tricky!

great post! thought provoking and very creative

In response to J, where he/she said ““On the other hand” (haha) I think the central sin behind the M-word is lust. So, keeping the lust-factor to a minimum is key here.”

Why keep some of the lust? Aren’t believers supposed to completely execute sin? I’m not sure that’s a strong argument. It’s almost like you are permitting the lust to occur in order to justify the M-word.

Tripp thanks for posting this. I know that this issue is a battle for many women as well, in that we have men in our lives who don’t have accountability for such issues. Thanks for stepping up.

Dude… can I just tell you how much I love your willingness to put it out there (no pun intended… ok, maybe a little pun intended)…

I have no idea what to say about this… the older I get, the more I try to pause before speaking to actually THINK about the topic first (not my typical nature AT ALL)… so I’m going to think about this one before deciding what I think…

I’m married, and truthfully, I don’t really think about this topic much because I try to always think more about what we are both needing in our sex life together… that’s a hard enough one because we are two different people, two different sexes who come to the table needing and wanting one perfect sex life. (see the dilemma!) But I know this… the closer I draw to God and the more I seek what He would want for our sex life, the more we seem to travel down a healthier track then when we try to figure it out by ourselves.

As for what’s right or wrong when you are single… wow… that’s a difficult one. I think I’ve always “heard” it’s wrong… but I would have to go and study the Bible and pray about it to see where that comes from. It seems like it could be unhealthy, but again… I’d have to think more about it and do my homework…

One thing I’ve always wondered though… how much more difficult some things are because we are waiting so long to get married compared to people 2,000 years ago. (And I’m one of them… I gladly did not get married until I was 33, thank the lord… I was a hot mess for a lot of my twenties…) but it did NOT make it easy in the whole sex department to wait that long. Think about it… if you get married at 16 or even 18, how much “waiting” or denying sexual temptation did you really have to deal with? Just something I’ve wondered about…

Anyway… I commend you for throwing this out there… I think you can see from the number of responses that this is the kind of stuff that we don’t talk about enough. And one thing you NEVER hear discussed among christian women is whether it’s okay or ever a struggle for them… but let’s leave that for another day!

And by the way, I literally laughed out loud reading this… “Does he have
arms?” Brilliant.

God shouldn’t care if it makes you happy

I guess you decided to start off with the least controversial item on your list of serious topics?

Fantastic post though – as with the previous self-conversation. Thanks for not hiding behind the list of well known teachers… blogs are for your thoughts, not quotes we can google ourselves.

Ok, I’m not going to weigh in with my lengthy position on this subject (pun very much intended) but I would like to give recognition to anyone who can legitimately tag a post with “boobs.”

Absolutely LOVE your posts and the creative way you tackle these subjects in a humorous way. Keep it up bro.

If this is about the time I walked in and caught you watching reruns of Katie Couric on the Today Show I apologize. I did participate in a conversation once that went something like this…

Less wise person -
“but I need to do it because it helps give me freedom from all the thoughts in my head.”

much wiser person –
“okay… then see if you are “free” enough to not do it.”

3 weeks Later —-
much wiser person-
“so how did you do? How “free” are you?”

Less wise person-
“I couldn’t not do it. I guess I don’t have the “freedom” that I thought I had”

BTW- It almost killed my marriage, it DID kill the intimacy of the relationship. We are still healing…
Thanks for your honesty DIII
-Less Wise Person

“surprise party in your bed” – I want you to do a guest post about this

Pat, That is a fantastic point.

And since He’s God, then I have to assume He knows a lot more about what will ultimately make me happy than I do. You don’t have to live long to find out that many things in life that seem immediately fulfilling will only leave you high and dry in the end.

Take green jell-o for example. When I was 7 I always wanted more. And then more. If I had it my way that’s all I would have eaten – green jell-o and Flintstones vitamins. Fortunately, my parents loved me enough to restrict me from this type of diet. I was mad at the time, and I even questioned if they cared about my happiness.

I agree with what Matthew says about the “freedom” not to do it. And WOW…Chris is right on with what God’s real design for any kind of sex or sexual desire should look like; “God designed sex for marriage and wants it to be a moment of immense intimacy. It is a moment of worship.”

Worship!!! i hope more men crave to worship the Lord with their bodies!!

It’s not surprising to see how the M-word has almost ruined marriages. It’s so sad but true. And the things that come alongside the M-word; lust, porn, other women, can harden the man’s heart towards the Lord, and then towards his wife. Keeping the conscience pure means keeping it within God’s boundaries- worshiping Him with your mind first! (Romans)

Thanks for the post. Sorry about the green jello. My mom used to never let me eat Little Debbie Cakes after school. I resented her for that for years. But, I’m glad she kept them from me otherwise by now I’d look like a Little Debbie Cake.

A little green jello never hurt anyone.

That Marc Driscoll Link?! WOW

Marc Driscoll- “Fourth, masturbation can establish a pattern of laziness. If a single man wants to have an orgasm, he needs to first become a man and undergo the hard work of courting and marrying a woman. If a married man wants to have an orgasm, he needs to first undergo the hard work of loving, leading, and romancing his wife. But, lazy men are prone to rub one out in the shower each morning rather than undergo the labors usually associated with responsible masculine married life. ”

Whoa. This guy knows what he is talking about! This is an awesome article!!

I’m in agreement with WOW!! Seriously I just said wow….

“Answer: No, you should not watch pornography because it is a sin of lust. Also, you do not want your lovely wife to think of herself as a whore. Since it is your job to wash her with the Word of God, cleansing her and making her holy, you should put down your dirty, defiling porn and pick up your Bible as the beginning point for your marital intimacy. “

One of the biggest issues that made me turn the corner on a masturbation addiction was this:

When you masturbate, it's not really like having sex with whoever you're fantasizing about. Instead, masturbation is having sex with the only partner who will ever know, in the exact moment, how you are being stimulated and how you WANT to be stimulated. No future husband/wife could ever live up to that.

And that's the toughest part. Take whoever you think is the hottest individual on the planet is (obviously Nancy Grace), and then imagine that person is with you constantly, and you know that they're always available to willingly please you sexually. That's what the possibility of masturbation is: your best sex partner, always willing to completely focus on YOUR climax.

From the point of view of a wife who has more of a sexual appetite than her husband (only intended to convey that I would always accommodate his needs/desires), is in good shape, and adore my husband, when I found out he would masturbate, I would feel completely hurt and PERSONALLY rejected. We have always had a close and good marriage and it was/is beyond my understanding that he would choose this when he knows it makes me feel alienated from him. So in that way, it's very damaging to a marriage. It creates division – not unity – which is the goal of marriage.

So – married guys – don't do it. It says you love yourself more than your wife.

From the point of view of a wife who has more of a sexual appetite than her husband (only intended to convey that I would always accommodate his needs/desires), is in good shape, and adore my husband, when I found out he would masturbate, I would feel completely hurt and PERSONALLY rejected. We have always had a close and good marriage and it was/is beyond my understanding that he would choose this when he knows it makes me feel alienated from him. So in that way, it's very damaging to a marriage. It creates division – not unity – which is the goal of marriage.

So – married guys – don't do it. It says you love yourself more than your wife.

this post alone makes you worthy of being added to my blogroll.

not that being added to my blogroll is anything special, but sometimes you just have to take what you can get. (but then again, i suppose you know that truth all to well after reading this post. haha. )

thanks for being so honest. this was great.

just read a quote from C.S. Lewis in a letter he wrote to a friend that I thought was interesting in light of this conversation…

“For me the real evil of masturbation would be that it takes an appetite which, in lawful use, leads the individual out of himself to complete (and correct) his own personality in that of another (and finally in children and even grandchildren) and turns it back; sends the man back into the prison of himself, there to keep a harem of imaginary brides. And this harem, once admitted, works against his ever getting out and really uniting with a real woman. For the harem is always accessible, always subservient, calls for no sacrifices or adjustments, and can be endowed with erotic and psychological attractions which no real woman can rival. Among those shadowy brides he is always adored, always the perfect lover, no demand is made on his unselfishness, no mortification ever imposed on his vanity. In the end, they become merely the medium through which he increasingly adores himself…The true exercise of imagination in my view, is (a) to help us to understand other people, (b) To respond to, and, some of us, to produce art. But it has also a bad use: to provide for us, in shadowy form, a substitute for virtues, successes, distinctions, etc. which ought to be sought outside in the real world–e.g. picturing all I’d do if I were rich instead of earning and saving. Masturbation involveds this abuse of imagination in erotic matters (which I think bad in itself) and therby encourages a similar abuse of it in all spheres. After all, almost the main work of life is to come out of our selves, out of the little, dark prison we are all born in. Masturbation is to be avoided as all things are to be avoided which retard this process. The danger is that of coming to love the prison.”
–C.S. Lewis in a letter to a Mr. Masson (March 6, 1956)

@ bkr: Thanks for the quote.

what if you are out of town for a few days. what does that have to do with how sufficient a wife is?

As a wife who's husband thought working up a soapy lather was easier than working one up with me…
How do you fight an affair with Irish Spring?
Three times in the shower and I was out.

Scotty, have you seen Big Bang Theory? ,

This is a great post. As a wife who is hurting from this issue, I appreciate the honesty in all of this. My husband and I are working through this, and it's tough– it takes a lot of honesty and vulnerability. My husband is loving and amazing, and I'm not under the illusion that he is the only incredible, awesome husband out there who is struggling with the big M, but that does not make it hurt me less. What I think some men do not realize is that the prevalence of the issue does not make it easier to handle if you are the one being, in essence, rejected in favor of the easier route. The fact that I am very sexually available, adventurous, and that I initiate sex much of the time does not change the fact that I feel inadequate when he does that. And he insists that I'm not inadequate, and that I do satisfy him, but how can that be true if he is still tempted to do that sometimes? I am still left feeling like I am lacking something that I should be equipped with to make him happy, and it's a helpless feeling when I don't know what it is.

Thanks for the open discussion– it is helpful to read what other people have thought about the issue.

I came across this article randomly and it just happened to be something I've been thinking about lately. However, I am a young single woman, who does the…M.

There isn't much opinion on the other way around…

I'm so glad that another woman admitted that she struggles with masturbation. There are a lot more out there, I'm one of them. I should say struggled. I struggled with this since I was a little girl, and no, nothing traumatic happened to me. I was raised in a strong christian family and became a christian when I was 6. As a child it was curiosity and I had no clue what I was doing. As I got older I did know what I was doing and it controlled my life. I did it when I was bored…so now the key is don't be bored! I have never watched pornography, but I allowed my own pornography in my head. This is what I have learned. As a single 30 year old woman I was loving those moments and those thoughts more than I was loving God. I was allowing myself to be in bondage to something that really doesn't belong to me. My body is not my own…it is a temple for my Creator. I was allowing this to put a wedge between myself and God. Did I still have a relationship with God? Yes, but not to the full potential that He wanted it to be. I was lusting, in all honestly I was lusting after myself. There is freedom from this, and it is sweet. It is freeing to not have those thoughts running through my head and making me feel even more worthless. I can run away from myself which is very scary, but it's possible. It's dying to self. That's hard b/c I really don't want to. It's fighting the lie that woman don't struggle with this…we do. We hide b/c we think it's a perverted sin and only men struggle with those kind of sins. There isn't that much opinion on this side b/c we don't know how to fight it.

I don't think that God wants us to live a life of guilt and shame. That's never his intent when he gives us instructions. Masturbation isn't addressed, but what's the deeper issue?

I get with our delay of marriage it can be a "health" issue and an overall "keep the plumbing" working–maybe this is true–but I struggle because logically I feel like if it's habitual it will probably play itself into my future relationships.

I made a little video about this because one of my girlfriends had a powerful story regarding masturbation. http://www.joyeggerichs.com/?p=1012 (blog plug-what?!?–I seriously have never done that before…) When we orgasm on our own and set our own precedents for how it works, I think it makes it that much more difficult to come together as one if we do marry. We already know how "everything works" on our own. We don't need anyone.

It also shows that we have a difficult time disciplining ourselves, which I think across the board our generation isn't very good at.

I ultimately think it will contribute to us continuing to delay marriage. If we all have our little social groups (online or in person) to meet our emotional needs, and we can masturbate at home to meet our sexual needs… Why in the world would we date?

I don't think it's the end of the world, but I also don't think it's contributing to a better world.

(Sexuality and Holy Longing by Lisa McMinn–also has some good stuff on this.)

Also, my friend has a self proclaimed "internet crush" on you. She told me to leave her digits if I commented. So I am going to.

She's now reading this and sweating profusely.

How did you know I sweat when I am anxious? I have never told you that.

The comment section of a Masturbation Post is always the best place to flirt–thanks Joy.

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That was funny, but good too!
http://www.riseupandgo.com/main.store

I really appreciate the Driscoll link. Wow!!

I tend to agree with many of the people that have commented. God didn't say a little sin was all right…He hates ALL sin. Come on now. A 'little' lust? I would like to know when a little did not lead to a lot.

Also, if something that you are doing does not further your intimacy with God, then should you really be doing it? Your relationship with God will ultimately lead into your relationship with your (future) spouse and pretty much anyone else that you cross paths with.

To the men who are not getting sex from your wives:

Have you told her that you loved her lately?

Have you offered to help with the kids, dishes, house chores, etc?

Have you spent time with her just to spend time with her? Seriously, since when do you stop dating after you get married? Get a babysitter and take her out!

Have you given her a gift just to spoil her…not to try to "get some"? (I heard a story once about a woman who cried every time her husband bought her roses because that meant he expected sex that night. Your wife is not a whore, don't treat her like one, and please do not try to buy sex from your wife!! It is meant to be enjoyed and to bring you closer to each other.)

Have you tried doing devotions and/or praying as a couple? Women respect a man who will lead spiritually.

When was the last time you left your wife a love note? (3 months ago doesn't count!)

If you treat your wife like the jewel in your crown that she is, I would be willing to bet that she will be more willing to make love to you on a more regular basis.

Odd I never really thought about it. I always assumed it was wrong but when you actually think about it I guess there are no scriptures that say it’s all out wrong. Interesting i’m torn now as to what is fully right or wrong in this situation (though I myself may not personally agree with it). Strange